Confronting the Terrorist Within by Chris Hedges
December 01, 2008 “Truthdig” — - The Hindu-Muslim communal violence that led to the attacks in Mumbai, as well as the warnings that the New York City transit system may have been targeted by al-Qaida, are one form of terrorism. There are other forms.
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, when viewed from the receiving end, are state-sponsored acts of terrorism. These wars defy every ethical and legal code that seek to determine when a nation can wage war, from Just War Theory to the statutes of international law largely put into place by the United States after World War II. These wars are criminal wars of aggression. They have left hundreds of thousands of people, who never took up arms against us, dead and seen millions driven from their homes. We have no right as a nation to debate the terms of these occupations. And an Afghan villager, burying members of his family’s wedding party after an American airstrike, understands in a way we often do not that terrorist attacks can also be unleashed from the arsenals of an imperial power.
Barack Obama’s decision to increase troop levels in Afghanistan and leave behind tens of thousands of soldiers and Marines in Iraq—he promises only to withdraw combat brigades—is a failure to rescue us from the status of a rogue nation. It codifies Bush’s “war on terror.” And the continuation of these wars will corrupt and degrade our nation just as the long and brutal occupation of Gaza and the West Bank has corrupted and degraded Israel. George W. Bush has handed Barack Obama a poisoned apple. Obama has bitten it.
The invasions and occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq were our response to feelings of vulnerability and collective humiliation after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. They were a way to exorcise through reciprocal violence what had been done to us.
Collective humiliation is also the driving force behind al-Qaida and most terrorist groups. Osama bin Laden cites the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which led to the carving up of the Ottoman Empire, as the beginning of Arab humiliation. He attacks the agreement for dividing the Muslim world into “fragments.” He rails against the presence of American troops on the soil of his native Saudi Arabia. The dark motivations of Islamic extremists mirror our own.
Robert Pape in “Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism,” found that most suicide bombers are members of communities that feel humiliated by genuine or perceived occupation. Almost every major suicide-terrorist campaign—over 95 percent—carried out attacks to drive out an occupying power. This was true in Lebanon, Sri Lanka, Chechnya and Kashmir, as well as Israel and the Palestinian territories. The large number of Saudis among the 9/11 hijackers appears to support this finding.
A militant who phoned an Indian TV station from the Jewish center in Mumbai during the recent siege offered to talk with the government for the release of hostages. He complained about army abuses in Kashmir, where ruthless violence has been used to crush a Muslim insurgency. “Ask the government to talk to us and we will release the hostages,” he said, speaking in Urdu with what sounded like a Kashmiri accent.
“Are you aware how many people have been killed in Kashmir? Are you aware how your army has killed Muslims? Are you aware how many of them have been killed in Kashmir this week?” he asked.
Terrorists, many of whom come from the middle class, support acts of indiscriminate violence not because of direct, personal affronts to their dignity, but more often for lofty, abstract ideas of national, ethnic or religious pride and the establishment of a utopian, harmonious world purged of evil. The longer the United States occupies Afghanistan and Iraq, the more these feelings of collective humiliation are aggravated and the greater the number of jihadists willing to attack American targets.
We have had tens of thousands of troops stationed in the Middle East since 1990 when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. The presence of these troops is the main appeal, along with the abuse meted out to the Palestinians by Israel, of bin Laden and al-Qaida. Terrorism, as Pape wrote, “is not a supply-limited phenomenon where there are just a few hundred around the world willing to do it because they are religious fanatics. It is a demand-driven phenomenon. That is, it is driven by the presence of foreign forces on the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. The operation in Iraq has stimulated suicide terrorism and has given suicide terrorism a new lease on life.”
The decision by the incoming Obama administration to embrace an undefined, amorphous “war on terror” will keep us locked in a war without end. This war has no clear definition of victory, unless victory means the death or capture of every terrorist on earth—an impossibility. It is a frightening death spiral. It feeds on itself. The concept of a “war on terror” is no less apocalyptic or world-purifying than the dreams and fantasies of terrorist groups like al-Qaida.
The vain effort to purify the world through force is always self-defeating. Those who insist that the world can be molded into their vision are the most susceptible to violence as antidote. The more uncertainty, fear and reality impinge on this utopian vision, the more strident, absolutist and aggressive are those who call for the eradication of “the enemy.” Immanuel Kant called absolute moral imperatives that are used to carry out immoral acts “a radical evil.” He wrote that this kind of evil was always a form of unadulterated self-love. It was the worst type of self-deception. It provided a moral façade for terror and murder. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are a “radical evil.”
The tactic of suicide bombing, equated by many in the United States with Islam, did not arise from the Muslim world. It had its roots in radical Western ideologies, especially Leninism, not religion. And it was the Tamil Tigers, a Marxist group that draws its support from the Hindu families of the Tamil regions of Sri Lanka, who invented the suicide vest for their May 1991 suicide assassination of Rajiv Ghandi.
Suicide bombing is what you do when you do not have artillery or planes or missiles and you want to create maximum terror for an occupying power. It was used by secular anarchists in the 19th and early 20th centuries, who bequeathed to us the first version of the car bomb—a horse-drawn wagon laden with explosives that was ignited on Sept. 16, 1920, on Wall Street. The attack was carried out by an Italian immigrant named Mario Buda in protest over the arrest of the anarchists Sacco and Vanzetti. It left 40 people dead and wounded more than 200.
Suicide bombing was adopted later by Hezbollah, al-Qaida and Hamas. But even in the Middle East, suicide bombing is not restricted to Muslims. In Lebanon, during the attacks in the 1980s against French, American and Israeli targets, only eight suicide bombings were carried out by Islamic fundamentalists. Twenty-seven were the work of communists and socialists. Christians were responsible for three.
The dehumanization of Muslims and the willful ignorance of the traditions and culture of the Islamic world reflect our nation’s disdain for self-reflection and self-examination. It allows us to exalt in the illusion of our own moral and cultural superiority. The world is far more complex than our childish vision of good and evil. We as a nation and a culture have no monopoly on virtue. We carry within us the same propensities for terror as those we oppose.
The Muslim Indian Emperor Akbar at the end of the 16th century filled his court with philosophers, mystics and religious scholars, including Sunni, Sufi and Shiite Muslims, Hindu followers of Shiva and Vishnu, as well as atheists, Christians, Jains, Jews, Buddhists and Zoroastrians. They debated ethics and belief. Akbar was one of the great champions of religious dialogue and tolerance. He forbade any person to be discriminated against on the basis of belief. He declared that everyone was free to follow any religion. His enlightened rule took place as the Inquisition was at its height in Spain and Portugal, and in Rome the philosopher Giordano Bruno was being burnt at the stake in Campo de’ Fiori for heresy.
Tolerance, as well as religious and political plurality, is not exclusive to Western culture. The Judeo-Christian tradition was born and came to life in the Middle East. Its intellectual and religious beliefs were cultivated and formed in cities such as Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria and Constantinople. Many of the greatest tenets of Western civilization, as is true with Islam and Buddhism, are Eastern in origin. Our concept of the rule of law and freedom of expression, the invention of printing, paper, the book, as well as the translation and dissemination of the classical Greek philosophers, algebra, geometry and universities were given to us by the Islamic world. The first law code was invented by the ancient Iraqi ruler Hammurabi. One of the first known legal protections of basic freedoms and equality was promulgated in the third century B.C. by the Buddhist Indian Emperor Ashoka. And, unlike Aristotle, he insisted on equal rights for women and slaves.
The East and the West do not have separate, competing value systems. We do not treat life with greater sanctity than those we belittle. There are aged survivors in Hiroshima and Nagasaki who can tell us something about our high moral values and passionate concern for innocent human life, about our own acts of terrorism. Eastern and Western traditions have within them varied ethical systems, some of which are repugnant and some of which are worth emulating. To hold up the highest ideals of our own culture and to deny that these great ideals exist in other cultures, especially Eastern cultures, is made possible only by historical and cultural illiteracy.
The civilization we champion and promote as superior is, in fact, a product of the fusion of traditions and beliefs of the Orient and the Occident. We advance morally and intellectually when we cross these cultural lines, when we use the lens of other cultures to examine our own. The remains of villages destroyed by our bombs, the dead killed from our munitions, leave us too with bloody hands. We can build a new ethic only when we face our complicity in the cycle of violence and terror.
The fantasy of an enlightened West that spreads civilization to a savage world of religious fanatics is not supported by history. The worst genocides and slaughters of the last century were perpetrated by highly industrialized nations. Muslims, including Saddam Hussein’s brutal regime, have a long way to go before they reach the body count of the secular regimes of the Nazis, the Soviet Union or the Chinese communists. It was, in fact, the Muslim-led government in Bosnia that protected minorities during the war while the Serbian Orthodox Christians carried out mass executions, campaigns of genocide and ethnic cleansing that left 250,000 dead.
Those who externalize evil and seek to eradicate that evil through violence lose touch with their own humanity and the humanity of others. They cannot make moral distinctions. They are blind to their own moral corruption. In the name of civilization and high ideals, in the name of reason and science, they become monsters. We will never free ourselves from the self-delusion of the “war on terror” until we first vanquish the terrorist within.
Chris Hedges was Middle East bureau chief for The New York Times. His Truthdig column appears on Mondays.
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Comment by Rajeev on 2 December 2008:
aks…
You are living in some kind of a mirage to defend tha pakistani elements..
the ATS was investigating only one case of Hindu terrorism where as it was investigating atleast 10 cases of Islamic terror attacks in India…
More over the ATS chief had earlier received letter from the Islamic extremists to eliminate him..
Why you guys in Pakistan are living in a state of denial..Nobody here in India blaming the pakistani govt or public fpr sure…But there is no doubt that most of the terrorists in the world have their bases out of pakistan soil…Either the democratically elected govt do not have the balls to take the terrorists head on or its a proxy govt run byt the army and the ISI…Its high time the general pulic of pakistan are catious about the extremists elements in pak who are sure to make pakistan a failed state very soon..
The paki media,govt,public instead of living in a state of denial shoiuld adress these iisue honestly and should come out of a solution..Its only for your own good..
We in india are extremely vocal against the extremist elements both Hindu and islamic…I am sure..what the Mumbai attacks showed that in India both common Hindus and Muslims have become mature to thwart the objectives of the extremits..
Comment by Rajeev on 2 December 2008:
Aks..in Kashmir muslims were killed..But more than the muslims its the Hindus who have faced the brunts..they have been driven out of their houses…The women are raped infront of their husbands/fathers by muslim extremists..does it justify that the hindus of Kashmir also star a full fledged terrorists squad to kill the innocent muslims…
This article sounds so false and full of propaganda…i belioeve articles like this shouldnt be allowed to publish here in FK..
Comment by Rajeev on 3 December 2008:
How can the author justify the acts of al qaeda..??i failed to understand…
If muslims are humiliated..they are free to oppose but not by voilence…
FYI history suggests that greatest revolutions have been achieved by the acts of nonviolence than the acts of vioilence….
This is ridiculous that some fanatic elements in Islam giving the entire islam bad name and more dissapointing fact is that the educated musilms are not raising their voices against these fanatics..
Comment by AksFilmi on 3 December 2008:
Well there is no efforts to defend any issue at this movememt, Im jst trying to analyis the scenrios dat sounds gud & truth. Its to early to blame this attack on any national level orgization.
Most of us are pleased with finding of small fish, bt i would nt care about small fish until we get the bigger view on this.
Comment by Rajeev on 3 December 2008:
Well…
aKS…LET is no small fish.They are a internationally banned organisation but their bosses are roaming freely in Pakistan..This organisation was responsible for the Parliament attacks in 2001 and have been involved in many terrors strikes both in India and Pakistan..
Reg involvement of Hindu terrorist organisations in this Mumbai strikes as aks and the article tries to hint at…this is as naive as it can go…The hindu extremist organisation do not have the sophistication and fire power to do such a BIG ATTACK…sECONDLY EVEN IF THEY would attack …they would have attacked the muslim populated areasnot TAJ or a Oberai(Looking at their motives…they want to neutralise SIMI by doing their own terror..which is ridiculous)
The ATS chief deatrh which you guys are talking about..his death was by default not be design.He happnes to be at the wrong place in the wrong time..
Comment by Rajeev on 3 December 2008:
Aks..
FYI the terrorist who has been captured injured have spelled out that he has been trained by LET and a retired Pakistani navy officer in Karachi….
Whats your take on this…
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
Well guys these are the causes not justification.
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
C’mon Rajeev even if we say they trained there etc how come Navy was unable to target them. Its a loose plot by Indian media sorry.
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
Rajeev
we are the worst affected nation from Terrorism. I hope you agree. Nothing like this should be spared.
Comment by Rajeev on 3 December 2008:
Don,
I believe …here is another one who is in a state of denial…Your argument is valid and that is very resaon the entire Indian navy is rattled and under tremandous pressure…
I agree that pakistan is badly affected by terrorism but who is to blame???your own people (ISI and Army ) trained them…now they are targeting you..
Now dont tell me ISI and your army are innocent….The entire international community have strong evidence and perception that Pakistan is the breeding ground for Islamic extremist elements…
So instead of justifying yourselves and blaming the Indian media..you must raise your voices against these extremist element in your society as we are raising our voices gainst the elements here in India…
Just today the indian Muslim councial declared that “”"they dont want the bodies of these terrorists to be creamated in India.they should go from where they have come.The captured Terrorist is from faridkot in Pakistan..”"”
So this is a strong message by Indian muslims that they do not approve the acts of these terrorits which they are doing in the name of Muslim..
Today even SRK echoed the same sentiments…
I appreciate this stand by Indian muslims…
Comment by Rajeev on 3 December 2008:
DON
“”C’mon Rajeev even if we say they trained there etc how come Navy was unable to target them. Its a loose plot by Indian media sorry.”"
This theory is not of Indian media..but that of the intelligence agencies of India,US,UK and russia…
If this in not true then why the Pakistan govt is in the defensive????
Why not the ISI chief came to India for sharing intelligence???In the fear of caught rted handed???
Comment by Rajeev on 3 December 2008:
BEIJING: Security agencies in China are quizzing their Pakistani counterparts about possible links between the attack in Mumbai and terrorist
organisations based in Pakistan, informed sources said.
Chinese agencies have already taken measures to seal off possible loopholes in the country’s borders with India, Pakistan and Afghanistan to ensure that no fugitives sneak in. Beijing is particularly worried that Pakistan based terrorists might seek refuge Xinjiang, the terrorism hit province bordering Pakistan.
“We are ready to cooperate with India and Pakistan to fight terrorists groups that are active in the region,” Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao told TOI. “We face the danger of terrorists’ attacks from supporters of the East Turkmenistan movement. So, we are very concerned,” he said.
China, which is a close allay of Pakistan, is capable of persuading leaders in Islamabad to part with critical intelligence and even hand over terrorists to India. But Beijing might prefer to deal with Pakistani leaders on this score to safeguard itself from terrorism spilling across the border to its own territory.
Liu, the foreign ministry spokesman, said China was ready to join hands with India to track down terrorists groups that may have been involved in the attack in Mumbai on November 26. The event demonstrated that India, Pakistan and Afghanistan continue to be serious targets of terrorists. Chinese security agencies were closely studying the incident to examine the role of terrorists in the region, he said.
“We have an arrangement with Pakistan on working jointly to combat terrorism,” Liu said and added that the arrangement is working well.
But an anti-terrorism expert of the Chinese government feels that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was pointing a finger at Pakistan to “cover up” what he described as the “flaws and shortcomings” of the Indian government. The terrorists in Mumbai attack may have come from within India’s border, Li Wei, director of anti-terrorist studies of China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations told the official media.
China’s public security bureau recently indicated that most of the ultras active in the country’s Xinjiang region have been trained and backed by Pakistan based terrorist organisations. Beijing is worried that the close linkages between different terrorists groups and possible links with the al-Qaida could escalate the already volatile law and order situation on the China-Pakistan border, sources said.
Li, who works for the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations, said that the Mumbai attack will have profound influence on other nations in Asia. It is also a signal that existing measures on issues like early warning system and risk evaluation are not sufficient to be prepared for such brazen attacks, he said.
The remarks from the Chinese foreign ministry comes in the wake of reports that the Pakistani military brass has threatened to pull out troops from the Afghanistan border and thus bring an end to the US-led war on terror if there is any military action from the Indian side over the Mumbai attack.
Pakistan has for long managed to keep both US and China on tenterhooks by using threats of easing its military pressure on the Afghanistan border and weakening its surveillance of Afghanistan based terrorists groups including Al Qaida activists, informed sources said.
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
dude caught red handed?
what do u mean by that?
you are saying as if you know everything plus when Uk/USA/Russia said so?
i do not want to go in arguments, but to defend my country is my right and yours too.
And if you are following some pre-conceived opinion i can’t help it.
If you think we are the ones who did such inhuman acts when we are the ones who are most targeted and if you just don’t want to hear other side. What can i do friend?
So you think Pakistan people/Government are involved in massacre in Mumbai and other incidents and ruling out any domestic problem. Its sheer negligence i guess.
I was, am, and never will stand by WAR decision at any point of time. We offered join investigation on top level.
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
and this article is not by any Muslim or Pakistani. Its from New York Times Jouranlist.
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
You appreciate Muslims of India but not us?
you see us terrorist or what?
can you openly explain dude?
The anger of people [which is right] is being used by media and government to hide their own negligence..
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
By the way the blame on us is not new.
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
Kindly see the issue in broader sense and do not neglect domestic issues.
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
You said the hatred is not for people/govt of pakistan but want to attack them?
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
You said the hatred is not for people/govt of pakistan but want to attack them??
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
But still we forward a helping/friend hand.
now its up to you guys what you want to do. To follow what Terrorist tried to make you see/believe. They do not want peace b/w two nations and they are succeeded now i guess. Threats to comedians by well known extremists in India is a clear sign.
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
We still want a friendly relations in future..
Comment by lmfrz on 3 December 2008:
QUESTIONS!!!
1) Several muslim children are killed by Israel every day in Palestine. Why doesn’t the world adopt them? Israel was illegally made in the middle-east and if the people protest, Israel calls them terrorists and bombs them.
2) What is India’s right on Kashmir? If India has a right to rule Kashmir (’coz of Letter of accession), then British also had a right to rule India.
3) Why do non-muslims always attack Islam and its prophet in the name of freedom of expression, but cry foul when someone does the same to them (Harbhajan posing as Rama or Da Vinci Code issue)? Muslims never talks ill about anybody else religion.
4) Why there is so much fuss on Muslim women wearing veil, when nuns also wear the same kind of attire?
5) What’s non-muslims problem if muslim men can have more than one wife in special circumstances? First - it’s not bad if it’s done for some justifiable reason. Secondly - is it worse than Female Foeticide (prevalent among non-muslims)or Sati (still happening in some parts of India)
6) Why should there be one-sided enforcement of Uniform Civil Code? India is a secular country and hence, people of all religions should debate and decide a common civil code, if it has to be enforced.
7) If demolition of Babri Masjid is justified ‘coz it was made after razing a temple, then muslims razing the temple to build it was also justified (’coz muslims came later on and non-muslims committed so many atrocities on them in their earlier history).
9) Why doesn’t the Indian govt punish people behind Babri Masjid demolition, Mumbai riots and Gujarat riots, but punish people involved in 1993 Mumbai blasts, Godhra incident?
INJUSTICE BREEDS TERRORISM.
The world needs to introspect on their policies regarding muslims. If they don’t terrorism will never end ‘coz if u oppress someone continuously they will naturally retaliate.
Comment by Rajeev on 3 December 2008:
Don,
Let me be very clear..You have right to defend your country…
Nowhere i have either the pakistan as a nation or the general public of pakistan or the govt..Even the indian govt /media is not doing so..
But your defense about ISI is totally uncalled for…The momenet you dopnmt have to defend ISI..pakistan would become a succesful state…till then Pakistan is a filed state and you know it better than me…Don..
Comment by lmfrz on 3 December 2008:
The biggest joke I think is calling Palestinians terrorists.
Imagine for example US creates a Christian state out of 2/3rd India and asks the Indians to stay in the remaining 1/3 land. What will Indians do???
They will naturally object and protest against it. US will bomb them and call them terrorist. Funny na???
Comment by Rajeev on 3 December 2008:
DON,
Where did i say..we want to attack pakistan..In the contrary ..i have alays maintained that i am not in favor of any war with pakistan nor the Indian public want that…
DON,
Freindly relations can
only be achieved when there is no double standrads ….
When the Govt is blaming LET and the terrorists elements of pakistan why are yopu agitated..are you a member of that organisation????
Comment by lmfrz on 3 December 2008:
I am no way justifying terrorism here. All I am saying is that the people all over the world need to introspect. Everyone should work towards making the world a safe place to live in.
Some people call that muslims are always in denial mode. I say that these people are also always in denial mode. Why don’t these guys realise that it’s their unjust policies that is creating terrorism?
In normal situation, no one wants to get killed/die.
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
Dude Rajeev
i never denied probability of Intelligence Issue for both sides be it ISI or RAW[both hands are not clean](i hope u agree on this).
But if you see the scenario at the moment there is no point of doing such thing on this point of time[when everything seems to be fine+economic crisis+other issues we better know] and that too at big scale.[i never see both ISI/RAW did such huge things not even helping hand]. At the particular point at least there is no point of doing such thing when one is surrounded by militants why would he see to other places even?
so we can not deny involvement in other cases[small disturbances](from both ISI/RAW) but i can not see a big plot by any of two countries[specially when everything seems fine][not in other cases too].
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
if LET has done any such thing i will stand by KILLING THEM IN PUBLIC.
i can not stand any inhuman act whoever do it. But if you see they denied it[LeT](i am not defending terrorist at any given day) but when we claim their approval we should claim their denial too. But if they really did it i would like to kill them by my own hands in public.
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
Dude Rajeev
i never denied probability of Intelligence Issue for both sides be it ISI or RAW[both hands are not clean](i hope u agree on this).
But if you see the scenario at the moment there is no point of doing such thing on this point of time[when everything seems to be fine+economic crisis+other issues we better know] and that too at big scale.[i never see both ISI/RAW did such huge things not even helping hand]. At the particular point at least there is no point of doing such thing when one is surrounded by militants why would he see to other places even?
so we can not deny involvement in other cases[small disturbances](from both ISI/RAW) but i can not see a big plot by any of two countries[specially when everything seems fine][not in other cases too]…
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
Dude Rajeev
i never denied probability of Intelligence Issue for both sides be it ISI or RAW[both hands are not clean](i hope u agree on this).
But if you see the scenario at the moment there is no point of doing such thing on this point of time[when everything seems to be fine+economic crisis+other issues we better know] and that too at big scale.[i never see both ISI/RAW did such huge things not even helping hand]. At the particular point at least there is no point of doing such thing when one is surrounded by militants why would he see to other places even?
so we can not deny involvement in other cases[small disturbances](from both ISI/RAW) but i can not see a big plot by any of two countries[specially when everything seems fine][not in other cases too]………….
Comment by lmfrz on 3 December 2008:
Rajeev,
A few things…
Pakistan is offering to work with India. What’s the problem? Why doesn’t India provide proof and work in tandem with Pakistan to eradicate the people behind it.
India’s problem is that they want to give Pakistan a list of demands and get them fulfilled without any question being asked.
What’s the problem with India in showing concrete evidence. If even then Pakistan doesn’t respond. India can easily complain US and other countries (since most of them are on India’s side right now)
Secondly, Pakistan refused to send the ISI chief ‘coz it sounds as if Pakistan is conceding to India’s accusations. (which obviously, no nation will like to do). Though it has agreed to send a group of ISI members to held discussions with Indian govt.
Imagine, what will India do, if China summons RAW chief saying they are supporting Tibetan separists. Obviously, India will first ask to produce evidence.
Comment by don_mansoor on 3 December 2008:
Dude Rajeev
i never denied probability of Intelligence Issue for both sides be it ISI or RAW[both hands are not clean](i hope u agree on this).
But if you see the scenario at the moment there is no point of doing such thing on this point of time[when everything seems to be fine+economic crisis+other issues we better know] and that too at big scale.[i never see both ISI/RAW did such huge things not even helping hand]. At the particular point at least there is no point of doing such thing when one is surrounded by militants why would he see to other places even?
so we can not deny involvement in other cases[small disturbances](from both ISI/RAW) but i can not see a big plot by any of two countries[specially when everything seems fine][not in other cases too]
Comment by Rajeev on 3 December 2008:
Imfraz..
1) Several muslim children are killed by Israel every day in Palestine. Why doesn’t the world adopt them? Israel was illegally made in the middle-east and if the people protest, Israel calls them terrorists and bombs them.
Ans::Indian govt do not aprove of Israels act neither does the general public of India…
2.”"What is India’s right on Kashmir? If India has a right to rule Kashmir (’coz of Letter of accession), then British also had a right to rule India.”"”
Then who has the rights????pakistan have its share of Kashmir.(POK) the people of Kashmir wants to stay with India as the recent elections have proved.(They want to be part of a failed state)What are you talking about???
3.) Why do non-muslims always attack Islam and its prophet in the name of freedom of expression, but cry foul when someone does the same to them (Harbhajan posing as Rama or Da Vinci Code issue)? Muslims never talks ill about anybody else religion.
Ans:: its not always true…artists allover world always attack the traditional point view…Its not aonly prophet mhd is attacked but also hindu gods and even jesus chrost in the name of freedom of expression..
4.”"What’s non-muslims problem if muslim men can have more than one wife in special circumstances? First - it’s not bad if it’s done for some justifiable reason. Secondly - is it worse than Female Foeticide (prevalent among non-muslims)or Sati (still happening in some parts of India”"
What the fucking justifiable reason you can give me of marrying more than one women?????
5) Why there is so much fuss on Muslim women wearing veil, when nuns also wear the same kind of attire.
Any kind of orthodoxy should be objected be it in any religions…I have some muslim freinds they simply hate wearing a burkha…
6. Why should there be one-sided enforcement of Uniform Civil Code? India is a secular country and hence, people of all religions should debate and decide a common civil code, if it has to be enforced
Ans:: In India there is no UNIFORM CIVIL code…Muslims are governed by the shariat law..Are the hindus and christians in Pakistan have this liberty????
7.If demolition of Babri Masjid is justified ‘coz it was made after razing a temple, then muslims razing the temple to build it was also justified (’coz muslims came later on and non-muslims committed so many atrocities on them in their earlier history).
It was never a mosque at the fisrt place…Namaj was never opffered at this site…In india about 60,000 temple been destroyed…I donot approve this nor the demolitioin of Babri site.Most of the indians do not approve of tghis and that is the reason BJP lost elections straight after the incidents…
“”"If Gujarat riots was justified as a response to Godhra, then 1993 Mumbai blast was also justified as a response to 1993 Mumbai riots.”"”
This is where your extremist mindset comes to fore…
9.Why doesn’t the Indian govt punish people behind Babri Masjid demolition, Mumbai riots and Gujarat riots, but punish people involved in 1993 Mumbai blasts, Godhra incident?
Babri site demolition was carried out by a mob…it was not instigated by anybody..Whom sd the govt punish???still some cases are going on against some saffron elements..
Mumbai riot culprits have been punished.Gujrat riots case is going on…
Comment by Rajeev on 3 December 2008:
Don,
Your arguments are really ammeturish….Dont want to argue with ammetures on this issue..
Comment by Rajeev on 3 December 2008:
Imfraz..
Mumbai is not the first act of terror attacks by paki elements..it has been done before and proofs been submitted…What action did pamkisdtyani govt take before…
Actually the world community never trust a pakisyani govt because they simply do not have the power.
Zardari inintially agreing to send ISI cheif..then denied..the rsaon????Armys insistence..
I agree that when Pakistan is offering joing investigation India sd agree to it..But not before those 21 terrorists are handed over to India because enough proof has been submitted on them before..
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
Imfrz has points Rajeev
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
ok dude rajeev am a kid but still logic is missing in yr statements too.
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
dude just list has been submitted not proof.
give proof on intl level.
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
but u really missed the essence of article
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
just tell me Paletine people life is not life?
Kashmir ppl life is not life?
Pakistani ppl life is not life?
just U.S people life is life?
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
And there were rumors of sending ISI chief. But was that reasonable to do that in current situation when bundle of blames coming????? be sensible dude?
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
Dude Rajeev
i never denied probability of Intelligence Issue for both sides be it ISI or RAW[both hands are not clean](i hope u agree on this).
But if you see the scenario at the moment there is no point of doing such thing on this point of time[when everything seems to be fine+economic crisis+other issues we better know] and that too at big scale.[i never see both ISI/RAW did such huge things not even helping hand]. At the particular point at least there is no point of doing such thing when one is surrounded by militants why would he see to other places even?
so we can not deny involvement in other cases[small disturbances](from both ISI/RAW) but i can not see a big plot by any of two countries(specially when everything seems fine)not in other cases too
Comment by Rajeev on 3 December 2008:
Imfraz,
I agree to some of your views though..
The outrage in India is not against Pakistan but against the Indian govt who have failed to secure its citizens..
But we as indians are rational and understand what are the rrsaons for this mess which our Pakistani counterparts fail to understand..
There would be a huge rally in Mumbai,Delhi,banlgalore today against the Govt apthy to the quality of life and you would be astonished to see Indian youth talking to streets against all kinds of terrorism(Islamic and hindu alike).This rally is not organised by any political pary but be common citizens..
What the Mumbai incidents have done is it has united the Indians for good and now there would be a movement against terrorism by the common man(unlike that of govts which is full of agendas).
I am sure this movment would spread across india very soon and it would soon spread to pakistan also.where the pakitani youth would be marching in the roads against the terrorist and extremism…
That my freind would be true fight against terrorism..
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
i can not see big plots either by ISI/RAW @ any given situation. And this situation where we were going good in relations. Why would one do so?
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
i wish Pakistani Common People should show such gesture by MARCH AGAINST TERRORISM like Mumbai Wasis did. Kudos to them.
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
Rajeev
We[Pakistanis] stand by every Indian against Terrorism.
I hope we are still friends. You are not replying to me on SB
Comment by Rajeev on 3 December 2008:
DON,
I have given a good answer to imfrazs post.. but i belive the moderator is alos from Pakistan who doesnt want to hear the truth..
DON proofe gainst Dwood and co has been submitted to pakistan govt when you were not even born(With no offense meant..assuming that you are in your teens)
But the pakidtan govt never acted upon it…But yes..this govt seems to be more honset thatn the previous one but they do not have the power….
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
I wish we have better relations.
i am 21 btw wat about u…
and MOD is from US and he is from India[from back]
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
and i saw there was no comment in moderation.
It just go blank…its Wordpress problem happen sometime with me
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
And please read the article carefully.
its not justification its CAUSES.
aage u better understand!
Comment by Rajeev on 3 December 2008:
DON
What do you know about Kashmir???Whatever your media doles out you loistens to it.right??
In kashmir about 5 million hindus have been fled from their homeland because of the atrocities by Extremists..Yes Muslims have suffered too …my heart goes for everybody…but for what resaon????only because Pakistan govt couldnt fight India directly and lost i three wars severly ..they resorted to gurella war by extremists??
FYI Kashmir have just finished an election where the polling was to the tune of 60-62 % .It happnede in the presence of International obserbveers…so no one cant blame india of aplying force..That goes on to show that majority of the Kashmiri have trust in Indian democratic procvess and want to stay with India….Afterall who wants to be part of a failed state???
Thats the truthe my dear…
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
dude these are the issues we can not talk properly.
its not as easy as you and me see in black and white.
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
I guess you are also listening/watching what media is showing?
so none of us can talk on it with 100% assurance.
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
And they are the kashimirs who are fighting/rebelling not Pakistan dude. And this article is much broader than Kashmir India PAk
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
we both are watching/listening what media is telling us. we can solve this issue..we did stretch ourselves on this issue. i hope to see a solution in future.
Comment by Maryam on 3 December 2008:
DON/ Imfrz
totally agree with your points and its not because i am a muslim but because you guys are right. The whole world is attacking muslims these in any which way possible and mumbai attacks are the latest thing through which they are trying to put another tag on muslims on the name of terrorism.
Rajeev
I dont blame you either because as an indian thats what you would say because thats what you are hearing day and night on tv, newspaper, radio etc…but you will only understand our point (muslims) when you know the full story about us from the past to present and not from media but doing your own research.
Comment by Shaan Khan on 3 December 2008:
Guys
Debate and discussions are very constructive but only when the intention is not to “beat up” the other. I have always maintained that those that talk don’t fight. Hence keep the dialogue going. Vent your opinions, but don’t insult one another or any religion.
The majority of terrorism is drug related, of the remainder, most terrorism is freedom related. Terrorism has its roots in loss of dignity (which results from loss of land, or loss of equal access to education, economical opportunity, and justice etc). Hence security & peace will never be achieved by a nation as long as equal justice, equal freedom and equal opportunity does not exist. Please always remember that no nation has won against terrorism with force. Look at USA, it had a budget surplus pre “War on Terrorism” and now it is in a recession. Look at Israel it is a rogue nation existing solely at the expense of US tax payers.
If people in the Indian sub continent want to say “Never Again”, they will have to confront the terrorist within before pointing a finger at anyone. They will have to level the playing field for all, Hindus as well as Muslims (Sikhs, Christians, Jews etc). Playing hardball and using Draconian measures are counterproductive because they will just feed and nourish more terrorism. Israel played hardball, as a result today instead of a PLO they have Hamas to confront with. I hope all will agree that dealing with PLO was a walk in the park compared to dealing with Hamas. Fortunately for Israel they can suckle on USA’s tits and survive. But, who will fund and subsidize our, “Israel like”, stupidity & mistake ?
I feel for the Kashmiris, but what they have done to the Kashmiri Pandits is inhuman, unacceptable and an insult to Islam. I understand and respect Modi/Advani’s stance on preserving their tradition and culture, but their attacks against Muslims is an insult to the great Hindu religion.
The attack in Bombay has stunned me. I feel hurt but I still cannot understand a few things:
1. How can ten /twelve “terrorist” cause so much havoc in so many locations ?
2. Why is it that we are willing to explore all possibilities, and discuss it, but we ignore that fact that Modi/Advani have been doing all within their means to stop the investigation against them ? Any time there is a crime, the police looks for those who would gain the most. In this case, the people who have gained the most in the recent attacks have been the Modis & the Advanis, hence logically speaking they should be the prime suspects.
3. To those who claim that the terrorist have already confessed let me tell you that given enough beating they will even confess to being fathers to their own parents. Such confession extracted under torture has no place in a court of law.
4. Finally it occurs to me that the way this attack was conducted makes one believe that the perpetrator wanted to go out of his way to provoke US, UK and Israel. It was like ordering lunch with someone else’s corporate card. If Pakistani elements or Kashmiri freedom fighters were behind this attack, they would have tried to limit their confrontation with just India. Why would they compound their burden by taking on US, UK and Israel also ? Therefore it makes more sense that this attack was the handwork of someone who intentionally wanted to gang up with US, UK and Israel to attack Pakistan and or Kashmiri freedom fighters.
Comment by don on 3 December 2008:
i agree with you 100% shaan and yes on Kashmir issue and Kashmiris inhuman acts too.
Comment by Rajeev on 4 December 2008:
Maryam,
Nowhere in my posts i have targetted Muslims….You must give it to me that i am a big fan of SRK who is a muslim…Its only in India it can happen that a person from the Minority community can be loved so much…You have to give it to Hindus for this…
Can it happen in Pakistan???Can a Hindu or Christian be loved in Pakistan as a muslim is loved in India???
My point is in INdia at this moment Hindus and Muslims are united.You can see documentaries where SRK and Aamir pledge to fight against terrorism.
What we indians are trying to say that we are not against Muslims nor are we against Pakistan.We are against terrorism.
But by default or design Pakistan has becomne the breeding ground of terrorism.Now the Pakistani govt has to fight against these extremeist elements so that the image of Pakistan and Muslims at large improve.
Now i expect educated people like you to come hard against these Extremist element rather than euliging them.Wwe expect educated muslims to come hard aginst these terrorists…that would make the entire community unsuspicious and its in their own good also.
Comment by Rajeev on 4 December 2008:
Shaan,
I agree with you some points and not with some.
First of all its a insult to call the terrorists in Kashmir freedom fighters…Thats an insult to the word “”FREEDOM Fighters”"”
Secondly Kashmir in india is a privileged state.There are poorerer sates than Kashmir.Millions of dollars have been spent in Kashmir in terms of special packages.States like Bihar,orissa and UP and north eastern sattes are poorer than that of Kashmir..
You know very well that the freedom movemnet in Kashmir is a propaganda war by pakistani army since they cant fight Indian army head on hence a proxy war…
All this atrocities gainst muslims are plain lies…Hindus of Kashmir have suffered more than that of muslims of kashmir and they have starred to understand this.
That is the resaon more than 60 pct turnout was se in the democratic votings in Kashmir just recently…
To term the kashmir terrorists as FREEDOM FIGHTERS IS AN INSULT…..
Comment by Rajeev on 4 December 2008:
Shaan,
For your information…the ATS Mumbai was investigating atleast 13 cases of terror out of which only one was gainst hindu fundamentalists and rest were against islamic terrorits…
Going by your theory ..the most to gain from this investigation is SIMI not advani/Modi…
So your and some stupid pakistani medias s effort to divert it to adavani/Modi is farfetched.
Living in a state of denial served no purpose to anybody…
You must realise that this is a fight against Terror not against muslims or any religion for that matter.
The irony is when the hindu terror plot was revealed in India ..there were hue and cry in indian media and from educated mass against these kind of Fundamentalims which i fail to hear from my muslim counterparts in pakistan…in the contrary they are seen defending these terrorists…WHY?????
Comment by lmfrz on 4 December 2008:
Rajeev,
“The irony is when the hindu terror plot was revealed in India ..there were hue and cry in indian media and from educated mass against these kind of Fundamentalims which i fail to hear from my muslim counterparts in pakistan…in the contrary they are seen defending these terrorists…WHY?????”
Hindus in India were after ATS’ life during the Malegaon probe. Right wing hindus and their leaders were clearly on the denial. Go to rediff and see public reaction. Several parties clearly tried their best to malign ATS. Mr Advani during a rally said that it was politically motivated. Some political parties offered tickets to the accused.
ATS was good as long as it was capturing muslims but it suddenly became bad when some hindus were captured. This is the hypocrisy I always talk about.
Comment by lmfrz on 4 December 2008:
India’s democracy has become a mobocracy. You have a mob behind u, u can do anything.
That’s why, people who don’t have a mob behind them, plant bombs.
Comment by Rajeev on 4 December 2008:
Imfraz,
Yes there were some support for the hindu fundamentalism but majority never supported them…There were enough coverage in the media about Col.Purohit and enough vpices raised gainst them…
but what are you trying to prove????why are you not trying to see the big picture ????Indian society as a whole never supported these extremist elements froms himdus also…
Comment by lmfrz on 4 December 2008:
Rajeev,
1) Several muslim children are killed by Israel every day in Palestine. Why doesn’t the world adopt them? Israel was illegally made in the middle-east and if the people protest, Israel calls them terrorists and bombs them.
Ans::Indian govt do not aprove of Israels act neither does the general public of India…
If the Indian govt doesnt approve of Israels, why do they ask them to do a recce of Kashmir. There are so many hindus who approve of Israel’s act. Go to any Indian website and read the comments below.
2.””What is India’s right on Kashmir? If India has a right to rule Kashmir (’coz of Letter of accession), then British also had a right to rule India.”””
Ans: Then who has the rights????pakistan have its share of Kashmir.(POK) the people of Kashmir wants to stay with India as the recent elections have proved.(They want to be part of a failed state)What are you talking about???
The public has the right to choose what they want to do. Read the history of Kashmir and you’ll know how it was unethically acceded in India. It shows the double standards of India. (what applied to hyderabad should have applied to kashmir also).
Regarding voting by public. For years, they were forced to go to polling booths. Right now, they don’t have any choice so they are voting. Give them a choice and they will tell u what they want. Why was the referendum never done?
—-
Comment by Rajeev on 4 December 2008:
Imfraz…
There have been 10 murders of Hindu pundits in Kashmir compared to one muslim there….Its better you go and read the history…
Secondly what they would have done in paistan ..afterall pakistan have still not accepted migrated muslims from India s their own .Still they are called mohajirs and treated as second class citizens…
Comment by Rajeev on 4 December 2008:
Imfraz..
The referandum can only be done when Pakistan stops its support for terrorists over there in Kashmir…
Given a chance the Kashmiris would always remain in India…not inpakistan..especially looking at the plights of Mohajirs at Karachi..
Comment by lmfrz on 4 December 2008:
Rajeev,
I will post my answers on rest of the questions soon.
–
Now coming to ur recent comments. There were enough backlash from hindus on the malegaon blast probe. Accept it. It was a poll issue for some right-wing parties.
I am not trying to prove anything. I am just saying that justice should never be denied. I am just saying that efforts should be from all directions. You can’t just kill muslims in riots, then when they plant bomb, you again kill some more. This will keep going on forver.
I also live in India. I love it as much as you do. But if there are some issues which are really grave, then need to be addressed in a just manner.
As an Indian citizen we need to ensure that no community suffers and culprits are brought to book. Why do they go scot-free in the name of being from majority? Why don’t we take a stand against it as we are doing right now against terrorism?
We need to be concerned citizens. We need to object to certain policies that affect the social and secular fabric of India.
Now, coming to Pakistan not acting upon India’s demand. Provide them evidence. If u don’t have any other, u have the biggest evidence in the form of the arrested terrorists (if he has really confessed about Pakistan’s involvement as claimed by India).
India should take the arrested terrorist to Pakistan along with Pakistan’s representatives and International representatives, ask him to tell the camp’s locality and catch the culprits or bomb them if India wishes.
Comment by lmfrz on 4 December 2008:
Rajeev,
I don’t want to argue with u on the Kashmir issue. Because u won’t understand mine. Or the people in Kashmir.
I would just say two things -
1. Kashmir’s accession was not ethical. (If u don’t expect Pakistan to support terrorism).
2. Army has done enough human rights violation in Kashmir (agreed to so many Int’l organisations).
Comment by lmfrz on 4 December 2008:
Plus, if people of Kashmir are with India, why there is a separatist movement going on? Why there are so much Army deployment in civilian areas in Kashmir?
I am not supporting Kashmiris ‘coz they are muslims. I am supporting them ‘coz I believe India’s accession of Kashmir was unethical and the people of Kashmir have the right to decide what they want to do. Just give them the right, both India and Pakistan. Else it will go on forever. People will get killed. Bombs will keep getting planted.
Whereas u are against Kashmiris demand only ‘coz India is involved.
And ya, please don’t justify India’s stance by saying that they are better off in India. This justification gives US the right to rule every country saying they are better off with the US.
Plus, if u are really concerned about the people of Kashmir, first stop killing and raping innocent citizens by the Army.
Comment by lmfrz on 4 December 2008:
3.) Why do non-muslims always attack Islam and its prophet in the name of freedom of expression, but cry foul when someone does the same to them (Harbhajan posing as Rama or Da Vinci Code issue)? Muslims never talks ill about anybody else religion.
Ans:: its not always true…artists allover world always attack the traditional point view…Its not aonly prophet mhd is attacked but also hindu gods and even jesus chrost in the name of freedom of expression..
There are institutes whose sole aim is to create ills about Islam and spread it. Non-muslims openly support any bad thing said or written about Islam. Have u heard any muslim supporting anything ill about any other religion? Basically, non-muslims are big hypocrites. Apne upar aati hai toh bahut dard hota hai, otherwise muslims ke saath jo chaahe karo.
Comment by lmfrz on 4 December 2008:
–
4.””What’s non-muslims problem if muslim men can have more than one wife in special circumstances? First - it’s not bad if it’s done for some justifiable reason. Secondly - is it worse than Female Foeticide (prevalent among non-muslims)or Sati (still happening in some parts of India””
Ans: What the fucking justifiable reason you can give me of marrying more than one women?????
I forget to write the first reason - i.e. how does it affect u (non-muslims) if I marry 1 woman or 4?
Now coming to your question, suppose my wife becomes mad, what should I do? Should I divorce her and let her to fend for herself or I keep her and marry another woman also.
Also remember, there are certain conditions to fulfill before one can marry another woman.
Now, tell me how many muslims u know who have more than one wife?? Did u know there are more percentage of non-muslims who are into polygamy than muslims in India?
Plus, if u are really concerned about our women - first give her the respect and equality as a citizen of India that she deserves.
Comment by lmfrz on 4 December 2008:
4.What’s non-muslims problem if muslim men can have more than one wife in special circumstances? First - it’s not bad if it’s done for some justifiable reason. Secondly - is it worse than Female Foeticide (prevalent among non-muslims)or Sati (still happening in some parts of India””
Ans: What the fucking justifiable reason you can give me of marrying more than one women?????
I forget to write the first reason - i.e. how does it affect u (non-muslims) if I marry 1 woman or 4?
Now coming to your question, suppose my wife becomes mad, what should I do? Should I divorce her and let her to fend for herself or I keep her and marry another woman also.
Also remember, there are certain conditions to fulfill before one can marry another woman.
Now, tell me how many muslims u know who have more than one wife?? Did u know there are more percentage of non-muslims who are into polygamy than muslims in India?
Plus, if u are really concerned about our women - first give her the respect and equality as a citizen of India that she deserves.
———-
Comment by Rajeev on 4 December 2008:
Imfraz..
If Kashmirs accession is unethical….there is way to oppose it..not by guns and raping Hindu females???What wrong the Hindus of Kashmir have done???
You talk about ethnical c;leansing..how many Hindus been killed in Pakistan after itsb independence???What was the percentage of Hindus in pakistan in 1950 and what is percentage now??/why Pakistan has declerad itself a islamic state??/it could have been a secular satte???
Comment by lmfrz on 4 December 2008:
Rajeev,
“If Kashmirs accession is unethical….there is way to oppose it..not by guns and raping Hindu females???What wrong the Hindus of Kashmir have done???”
There are more muslims killed and raped in Kashmir by the Indian army. If muslims were raping hindus what was the army doing???
Yaar, I don’t have a data about Pakistan. Plus, two wrongs don’t make a right.
It was Pakistan’s decision to be an Islamic state. India could have also called itself a Hindu Rashtra. Why the stupid mask of secularism, when there are so many muslims killed and with the help of govt and police.
Comment by Rajeev on 4 December 2008:
Imfraz..
“”"Plus, if people of Kashmir are with India, why there is a separatist movement going on? Why there are so much Army deployment in civilian areas in Kashmir?”"
The separeatist movemnet is going on with the support of Pak establishment..the people of Kashmir have realised that these separists cant give anything to them but bombs and bullets..hence they have started to come to mainstream india.The recent election in Kashmir prove that…
Imfraz…my freind..i invite you to india..come here..experince how civil society has the freedom of expression here…how there is underlying secularism exists over here….
Can pakistan ever love a Hindu actor there in pakistan as we love a muslim actor here in India??????
In India our govt gives more subsidies to muslims when they go for huj…in india politicians are more concerned abouit muslims than the hindus…In india our media is more careful so that muslim sentiments are not hurt…come to india experinece these facts my freind…you would realise what i am talking about…yes injustice to muslims have been done in some ways but so as to Hindus and and any community for that matter…
Its high time you guys realise the propaganada by your own govt to hide their own failures in all front…be it economic,social or cultural…Pakistan as a nation has not grown from 1947..it has stagnated….
WHy your artists come to India to earn bread and butter???
Why you watch Bollywood movies??
Why your cricketes come to play IPL??
because India as a nation provides the platform and its liberal..try and understand this…..
Instead of bashing india and trying to hurt it ,will not solve any purpose of Pakistan…
If india is hell and hearty ..pakistana and pakistanis would benefit too…
Comment by Rajeev on 4 December 2008:
Imfraz…
“”Yaar, I don’t have a data about Pakistan. Plus, two wrongs don’t make a right. “”
Hindus have been killed in pakistan.On that count should the Hindus start a terrorist organisation and start killing innocent muslims in pakistan????
Nothing can justify terror my dear freind…If musilms are subjedsted to injustocs inkashmir(Which io doubt they have)..ther are other ways to oppose it…Indian didnt send his army just like that to kashmir…It send its army only after terrorism here increased..Otherwise it was all good in kashmir till 1989…
When pakistani army realised that it cant fight indian army directly they stared a proxy war.They stared training and intoxicating the brains of innocent youths…Thats wher everything began…Try to take rtesponsibility..
Comment by Rajeev on 4 December 2008:
Imfraz..
If India would have declerd a Hindu rasthra then pakistans population would have been 50 cr at this momnet(As muslims from india would have gone to pakistan) and the pakistani public would have been dying out of starvation..
There would have been bigger unrest in karachi from Mojahirs…
Thank India its not happening because india declared itself a secular state……
Comment by lmfrz on 4 December 2008:
Rajeev,
“In India our govt gives more subsidies to muslims when they go for huj…in india politicians are more concerned abouit muslims than the hindus…”
Muslims don’t want India’s subsidy for Haj. But let us live in peace. Treat us with equality. Make sure that muslims as a whole get justice.
Now tell me how much subsidy does muslims get from the Indian govt? This is just to check ur knowledge.
How do u think politicians are more concerned about muslims than hindus?
Most politicians try to do things that appeal to the majority. Because in a ‘democracy like India’ it’s all about vote. Anything that’s right and affects hindus are called ‘appeasement’ by right wing politicians and public.
e.g. Malegaon probe is appeasement.
Letting off muslims from false accusation is appeasement.
I am from India only.
But there are so many wrong things that need to be corrected here. Sorry to say that but it’s mobocracy out here.
———–
Comment by Rajeev on 4 December 2008:
The British nearly gave up war in Afghanistan recently and instead wanted dialogue with Al Qaeda [Images]. Washington termed it defeatist and subsequently London [Images] rescinded the suggestion. The stalemate in the war on terrorism continued.
The breed of Inherently Helpless Indians tells me repeatedly that “even the West led by America could not smash the terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq — how can a country like India win?”
Untrue. With the right strategy this war can be won decisively.
Frankly, Al Qaeda and the Taliban [Images] combine cannot win the war. They don’t have the means. The jihad groups have no naval or air forces. No missile force either. They do have a slackly held guerrilla army that boasts of weapons with limited range and some quantities of explosives. Their satellite phones and other modest wireless systems are susceptible to interception, consequently a big constraint. These outfits do not boast of surveillance and intelligence gathering capabilities through satellites or UAVs.
In practical terms they have no reach. Al Qaeda, the Taliban or similar groups can only cause damage or destruction to contact targets and its immediate periphery which is woefully inadequate to topple a regime — a prerequisite for victory. Kabul remains with Karzai, though at a cost, while Washington, Paris, and London continue to conduct international business unaffected.
Yet, Al Qaeda and the Taliban for years have managed to create a deadlock against the best equipped and trained forces of the first world on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border. Why?
On multiple counts the war waged by the Bush administration was borne out of unsound principles. First, fighting on two fronts simultaneously created division of resources between Iraq and Afghanistan. It resulted in shortage of the necessary numbers of boots on ground, so vital while fighting a guerrilla force in the Afghan-Pakistan region.
Second, if the alliances that forge preponderance in the international affairs are broken, victory will elude. The Western alliance, which is the statement of the American might, was rebuffed in Iraq. Washington in its unilateral stubbornness opened the second front, throwing to winds the sane strategic advice of its partners. The invasion of Iraq, if ever necessary, should have taken place after consolidation of the Afghanistan-Pakistan front. The victory in the Afghanistan-Pakistan area in any case would be sufficient to put other players in the region on notice.
Washington disregarded its Western alliance partners in invading Iraq, considered an unjust war by rest of the world. It in effect united the various jihad outfits in different parts of the world. Most of these groups that lacked potency till then, appeared formidable by coming together. Thus, in the last eight years, the sum of parts of the radical Islam lent an appearance of more than the total.
Third, the extraordinary rise in the oil prices not only boosted the old adversary but also added new rivals soaked in the wealth of petro-dollars. Also billions of dollars wasted in the Iraq war is significantly responsible for the current economic misery.
Last, the biggest folly was to trust Islamabad [Images]. At the time of invasion of Iraq, I cautioned the former American ambassador in a gathering at New Delhi [Images] that the “United States and its allies cannot win in Afghanistan since they have the lock (Afghanistan) but cannot unlock it as they do not have the key (Pakistan) under their control.”
Even today many with the Cold War mindset in the international media wrongly advocate that Kashmir should be resolved — implying India should resolve it in favour of Pakistan. I would say it is a misplaced approach with counter-productive ramifications. With Asia